Ask the grumpies: How to handle the emotional aspects of moving for a job

Katherine asks:

A question about moving for a job, with a spouse:

I am about to finish my phd, and I’ve been interviewing for jobs all over the country. My husband and I currently live in his home state (where we met, but I have no ties to this place other than I love his family who mostly live in state), and if I wasn’t in the picture he would want to stay here (in this state) for the rest of his life. He hates our current city and doesn’t have good job prospects here anyway. We’re both really excited about moving away from here, but I’m feeling increasingly guilty about being the reason he’s going to move across the country to a place he’s never been – and nervous myself about moving to a place I will have probably only visited for 30 hours, tops. How did you and your partners handle the emotional aspects of moving for academic jobs?

Don’t feel guilty! This is a fun new adventure for both of you! Going to a new place that you’ve never been before and living there is a wonderful thing to do– you become more cultured and a better person. Like that wear sunscreen graduation speech goes (“Live in NYC but not so long that it makes you hard, live in LA but not so long as it makes you soft”). And if it doesn’t work out, you can do like #2 did and move again.  It’s only a permanent thing if you want it to be.

(Note:  #2 had to move for a job without her significant other– that was pretty awful emotionally.  But the moving to a new place means lots of fun new discoveries at first, even if you end up someplace that turns out to be a Blasted Wasteland and not a permanent living place.)

Good luck!

UPDATE:  We are NOT saying that there is anything wrong with Katherine.  We are not saying her feelings are abnormal.  We are not saying she’s a bad person for feeling guilty.  We are giving her permission to NOT FEEL GUILTY and to reframe this move as an adventure and a potential learning experience and not something permanent (unless they want it to be permanent).  Her husband is already excited about the opportunity.

So please, no more comments saying, “I disagree, Katherine has every right to feel guilty.”  Yes, she can continue to feel guilty if that’s what she wants to do.  But it wasn’t our sense that that was how she wanted to handle the emotional aspects of moving to a new place and trying to solve the two-body problem.


38 Responses to “Ask the grumpies: How to handle the emotional aspects of moving for a job”

  1. Omdg Says:

    I don’t know… I probably need to get over this, but I have a large amount of angst around the prospect of moving in the future for my job. My husband is really good at his job, and is happy where he works now. I would feel terrible asking him to quit so we could move together if he ended up hating his new job. Times 100 if I also didn’t like my new job. I don’t think this is an unusual concern.

    • nicoleandmaggie Says:

      Ok, so she can feel terrible about it. That is also an option. Not a particularly useful or helpful one. But an option.

      Maybe you will feel more optimistic about life once you leave the midatlantic and go someplace where people are more polite in everyday interactions. Where you don’t get nasty comments when you’re ordering food. Or yelled at by your colleagues on a regular basis. Heck, maybe you’ll start believing that other bloggers can be happy or that it is possible to look on the bright side.

      Your family is a team and if something doesn’t work out you have learned something and you can use that information to change things and be happier in the future.

      • Omdg Says:

        Whoa. That response was a bit over the top…

      • nicoleandmaggie Says:

        I suppose you could see it that way. You could also see it as saying that there’s a way to look at things (like a move) optimistically.

      • Omdg Says:

        I guess you must have glossed over the part where I acknowledged that perhaps my angst was undue… And I think risk averse may the term you’re looking for. :-)

    • bogart Says:

      I’m pretty much with OMDG here. I mean, “We didn’t worry about it! We thought of it as a new adventure!” is a perfectly acceptable answer to the question, “How did you and your partners handle the emotional aspects of moving for academic jobs?” but it may not be a helpful one (of course it may).

      To answer Katherine’s question … I never did move with my partner for an academic job and ceased pursuing faculty roles when I decided the hassles/costs/downsides involved with moving away from where DH lived exceeded the benefits. But not before moving twice (without him). The first time it was clear it was always short-term move (VAP position). The second one could perfectly well have been my dream-job-for-life though it wasn’t (as it turned out) my dream-place-to-live-forever. I packed up a modest amount of stuff (and a horse) and off I went. Once there I devoted myself to learning about the institution and the area and enjoyed exploring a new place both with (when he was visiting) and without (when he wasn’t) DH. But I don’t remember feeling tremendously angsty about it, so am not sure I have many insights to offer. Are you sufficiently angsty that it would be worth meeting with a counselor/therapist to talk through this?

      • nicoleandmaggie Says:

        Nobody said that there’s anything ABNORMAL about feeling guilty. Guilt is pushed on professional women pretty constantly. Especially when they have to solve a two-body problem. (Oddly, for some inexplicable reason, men aren’t asked to feel guilty when their career necessitates a move. Strange that.)

        That said, Katherine has NO REASON TO FEEL GUILTY.

        For one of us, moving turned out fine. For the other one it didn’t. But when it didn’t, a couple with one PhD and another with marketable skills is not stuck in Blighted Wasteland forever. And there’s the knowledge that they tried and new knowledge was gained.

        You can be miserable about the whole thing or you can be curious and see how it turns out. That’s a choice. Life is a journey, not a destination.

        In terms of “risk aversion” when you have two highly skilled people it is a calculated risk. There are things one can do to make it less risky, like spending like you’re still in grad school to get in better financial position, but moving for an academic job is not like taking a one-way ticket to Siberia with nothing in your pocket.

      • bogart Says:

        Sure, and the IBTP guilt point is good one (and useful, I think, to articulate, as you have done here).

        I’m not so sure feelings are a choice. I mean, yes, one can choose to think through/talk through plans in a way that identifies and focuses on the positives and I definitely think this is important and worthwhile (thus my suggestion above to talk to someone). But “Don’t feel … ” (don’t feel X, feel Y!) in and of itself isn’t something I think I would feel helpful — were I Katherine.

        So — “Unpack your guilt and blame the patriarchy for putting it in your suitcase in the first place!” = useful (at least potentially, can’t speak for Katherine obviously). “Don’t feel guilty” = not so much, to me.

        (Am trying to work with an off-track thoroughbred with a history of abuse and, related, considerable anxiety — bundled in 1,000 lbs of really athletic animal. I know, he’s not a person, but darn it I wish I could just tell him, “Don’t feel anxious! Feel relaxed, confident, and interested!”)

      • nicoleandmaggie Says:

        Feelings NOT being a choice is a fixed mindset thing. If you believe feelings are not a choice, then they are not a choice.

        Guilt is something a person can work on. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is awesome and has high success rates.

        First, BEFORE working on it though, the rational mind needs to know that it doesn’t have to feel guilt. Like, if you kill a man just to see him die, you should be feeling guilt. Everyone should be like, yes, I would feel guilty in that situation and you are right to feel guilty.

        HOWEVER, in this situation there’s none of that. Rationally, Katherine doesn’t need to feel guilty. We at grumpy rumblings give her permission not to. Guilt isn’t going to make anything better, just more miserable for everyone involved, including the spouse who has to deal with the extra angst. (Gratitude, “Thank you so much for being such a great partner” is better than “I feel so terrible about this.” A little bit of talking about guilt is fine, but when it takes over, it ruins any fun that can be had.)

        Disclaimer: depression, other mental illnesses are different than what Katherine here is talking about– those are serious and should be talked over with a qualified medical professional.

      • Omdg Says:

        I agree that men are not expected to feel guilty about uprooting their families. That said, I do think my husband would. And he has already said no to a wide variety of professional opportunities that required travel/ a major move because of my career. He has told his superiors at work that this is the reason and they seem to be ok with it.

        However, truth? I secretly think he’s afraid too, and he doesn’t want to be away from our daughter.

  2. becca Says:

    I think it’s totally legit to dread the *prospect of the physically moving*. One can mitigate by strategically hiring help, but the whole thing is a PITA.

    That said, people are *adaptable*, and chances are, 6 months after the move? Both the correspondent and her husband will be about as happy as they are now. But the correspondent will have better career prospects, and likely the husband too, from the sounds of it. Careers aren’t everything, but academic careers tend to be better than lots. It’s also not like they could get him better prospects without moving at least from their current city, so the physically moving aspect is basically a necessary evil.

    It’s also completely true they will learn more about what they like and don’t like with a jump like this. I personally can justify a lot of poor choices in restaurants by saying “well, this is edible and I’m glad I tried it and I will never eat here again”.

    That said, without any knowledge of the person’s actual level of self-knowledge, I’d be wary of prescribing PITA experiences just for the sake of developing self-knowledge. You learn a lot about yourself in unmedicated childbirth, and getting lost hiking in the woods with no water, and rage-quitting a job, and watching someone die of cancer. I wouldn’t necessarily recommend any of those experiences to others, despite not regretting any decisions that led to them in the slightest.

  3. Norwegian Forest Cat Says:

    I wonder how much of this angst has to do with “the academic experience” and the expectation of staying in one job (and one place) for a long time… my PhD training + postdoc have both been with people who planned to be in the city I’m in for decades, and that seems to be a common idea as the career center people here are always harping that most people outside of academia change jobs many, many times (and if they don’t like what they’re doing, they leave). The same goes for the city you live in – if you find something you really, really want somewhere else,go there as long as the city you’ll be in is somewhere you could at least see yourself living in for a while. And if you find you really, really hate the city, you can always go somewhere else! Yes, it’s a PITA. But it’s a fixable problem for most people, especially if you’re employable.

    But, I am in the flip side of that situation now – not super thrilled with my job, but took it to stay in the same city as my SO. I know he feels a LOT of angst and feels like I took this job because of him, but it really was something that I was excited to try at the time. I’m going to agree with becca on this one, though – I’ve learned a lot about the things that I don’t want, which includes lots of things I thought I would like but actually really, really don’t. :)

  4. Contingent Cassandra Says:

    The costs of moving are genuinely different for different people, with a lot of factors (personality types, support structures, professional cultures, etc.) coming into play.

    It may be that your guilt is an overreaction, but it may also be that it’s a sign that you’re sensing that this move might in fact be really hard for your husband (and perhaps also for you), and perhaps even that such a drastic move is not, on balance, a good idea for the two of you. I wouldn’t give it more importance than it deserves (moving *is* stressful, but it sounds like you’re going to do at least a short-distance move sometime soon anyway), but I also wouldn’t pooh-pooh it. There’s something to be said for trusting your gut (and for taking into account just how strong the the-job-is-all culture is in academia).

    That said, it sounds like you’re at a moment when you could try out the moving thing, with an understanding that, if you decide you’d be happier nearer to his family (even if that means a different career for you than you planned), you’ll keep that option open. Even with tenure, the lifetime commitment (to the extent it still exists) is, after all, only on one side.

    • nicoleandmaggie Says:

      To clarify. WE ARE NOT POOH POOHING Katherine’s emotions. We’re not saying they’re abnormal. We’re not saying she’s a bad person.

      We ARE giving her permission to look at this as an opportunity rather than as a horrible life ending decision that will only make her husband miserable for the rest of his life. Because it ISN’T.

      And yes, it is not a permanent decision.

  5. chacha1 Says:

    It sounds to me as if Katherine & husband just need to talk a little more about anxiety levels, because anxiety about the hassles of moving, and adapting to a strange place, and what-if-the-job-stinks (for her), and re-employment (for him) is legit but it is also MANAGEABLE if discussed. Feeling guilty is kind of a natural reaction to knowing that you are the driving force for a change that is going to substantially affect other people.

    BUT when there is already a) stated agreement and b) stated excitement by the other person, especially where the other person has emotional comfort but career discomfort in the place-to-be-left, then guilt is probably not actually what the feeling is (if that makes sense). I’m sensing a bit more “I’m really worried about this because I’m not sure it’s the right decision for ME and it’s more comfortable to frame my anxiety as guilt for HIM.” Which may be completely erroneous subtext and apologies if so.

    Emotional comfort is not location-dependent. Your people are still your people even if you have to interact by Skype, or whatever the hip kids use these days. And it’s simply impossible to know ahead of time if a life change is going to be the right decision or not. You’ll only know that after the fact.

    Written as one who moved across the country without ever having visited the destination city, for the benefit of a partner who then completely wasted the opportunity and abused my support. I, however, have done much better here than I ever would have there. So … fwiw.

    Also fwiw … a lot of people, but perhaps especially men, face cultural pressure to hold their position. When you leave your troop you have to establish your place in a new one. It’s hard to do and it’s scary. But there is a lot to be said for a complete change of environment, because it is very possible that the previous troop represented limitations that may not exist in a new environment. Different troops have different cultures, which is the whole reason people should travel.

    • nicoleandmaggie Says:

      That is really great advice, thanks Chacha!

      (Though we’re not sure about the emotional displacement– that’s something only Katherine knows for sure. It’s definitely plausible.)

  6. Katherine Says:

    Thanks for addressing my question!

    I am feeling a lot less guilty that I was a month ago – I think mostly because I now HAVE a job that I’m excited about, as opposed to then when I’d had some campus interviews that seemed exciting and a handful of offers that were less exciting. I’ll be tenure-track at a small liberal arts college in a small town in the Midwest! If I had ended up accepting one of the not-exciting offers, I would probably be feeling very differently at this point.

    We are both really getting into the search for a house – we’ve been daydreaming for years about owning a single-family house with a large yard and a garden, and that kind of place is really affordable where we’re going. The college I’ll be working at is in a small town (15,000 people) that is 15 miles from a city with a 6-figure population, where one of the major industries is a well-paying field my husband is qualified to work in (although tbh, he’s not that interested in that field at this point – he’ll probably try to work part-time and fix up our house/garden the rest of his time, which is totally fine with me).

    I think that Contingent Cassandra hit on something true in that I think the move might be pretty difficult for my husband – being from the state where we live now is a major part of his identity. But, he’ll still be from here no matter where we move! My grandmother did the same thing (she moved from this state to California for my granddad’s job) and 55 years later, she is still obviously from here. Every time the subject of moving comes up, she tells us the story of how she cried when they got to California and she saw where she was going to have to live. So that’s not super-helpful.

    So I’m still nervous about how the move and the adjustment period are going to go, but I’m definitely coming around to the idea that this is a new and exciting adventure for us!

    • chacha1 Says:

      Yay adventure! :-)

    • nicoleandmaggie Says:

      It’s definitely easier to feel more excited and less anxious when there’s more certainty!

      If you guys aren’t Midwesterners, check out our guide on our little cultural oddities so you get used to dealing with us.

      I should also dig up that open access video series from the 70s that we posted once that is still true today about our weirdest cultural quirks.

      The big things are:
      We’re abrupt but we’re not being rude– we tell it like it is. If you’re coming from SoCal or the South this can be really disconcerting.

      We don’t lie (except *maybe* Rosa’s example yesterday of, “Oh I just couldn’t eat another bite” but most likely that’s true even if it doesn’t necessarily mean we’re not still hungry even if that’s what we’re implying).

      Get really good at talking about the weather. If you can’t think of what to say, just mention the weather. Or the future weather.

      People will offer you things three times. The way this works is the first time they’re offering just to be polite– if it is something you really want it is ok to say yes at this point but you have to be super grateful about it. The second time they offer is the negotiation stage– they’re really willing to do what they offer but if you think it’s too much effort for them, you can decline at this point and they might be happy about that (you do this “if you’re sure..” vs. “no I can’t possibly” dance at this point depending on how much you want the favor or think you’re imposing). The third time is the, no they’re really happy to do the thing they offered and you should feel free to accept or decline without guilt at that point.

      For the most part though, we’re really welcoming folks. And I don’t think that’s just my own cultural comfort and bias.

      Silence is their way of not saying something not nice. After you’re a bit more comfortable, start listening for silences. Don’t let it bother you at first though– it’s a bit easier if you don’t notice making missteps at first and they’ll forgive you. Though if you start talking politics (or religion) and are met with silence, change the topic to the weather immediately.

      I’ve lived all over the country and it has been really good for me as a person to understand that just because say, southern Californians or east coast folks have different customs than I do, that doesn’t mean they’re being rude or they’re bad people etc. It’s just like speaking a slightly different language, and once you figure it out things are a lot easier. And I don’t think I would have understood that without being pushed out of my comfort zone.

      And, as you can tell, we are definitely still Midwesterners no matter where we live. And I at least definitely feel right at home with other Midwestern transplants whenever I run into one, even though I can do Californian etc. if I put my mind to it, and I have been known to spontaneously use “bless hir heart” appropriately.

      • nicoleandmaggie Says:

        It’s this series: But I’m having trouble finding the other lessons.

      • nicoleandmaggie Says:

        PS CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      • xykademiqz Says:

        Katherine, congrats on the job!

        I live in the Midwest, originally from a galaxy far, far away. While I drive in the snow like a champ and love talking about the weather, I am not entirely comfortable here after 12 years. I probably never will be, and I suppose that’s OK. The kids are, though; this is home for them. For now, that’s all that matters.

        OTOH, I would not mind moving wherever, whenever. Once you have been truly uprooted, any place can be made fine enough. And perhaps no place is truly home.

        I am thinking Australia next. Sadly, DH doesn’t have much wanderlust.

      • nicoleandmaggie Says:

        I tend to think that home is where my loved ones are. So as long as I have DH and the kids and the kitties… I’m home no matter where we are. (Still, I get this odd sensation flying into the LA airport of coming home every time I do it. Even though it is totally not home. But there’s something about those mountains. At least when the smog levels are low enough to see them.)

      • Katherine Says:

        Thanks, nicoleandmaggie and xykademiqz! My husband and I watched those talk like a minnesotan videos a few months ago, and we thought they were hilarious.

        I will have to learn to drive in the snow. I’ve lived in snowy places before, but didn’t drive much there.

      • nicoleandmaggie Says:

        Not just hilarious–true!

    • Leah Says:

      I live in Minnesota now, and the talk like a Minnesotan book and audio tape has been seriously helpful. No joke. People seriously do the “ask three times” thing. My poor husband when he visits my west coast friends — they only ask one time if he wants a coffee refill. I’ve learned to step in and do the second ask for him before they dump the pot.

      Also, in Minnesota, “oh, that’s different” is totally an insult. Veiled, but it’s there. Not a lot of people do this, but real dyed-in-the-wool Minnesotans totally throw shade that way.

      I absolutely love living here. It’s such a great state (and apologies if it’s not the one you’re going to — I enjoy most of the midwest in general). I grew up partially in the midwest and partially on the west coast. Agreed that once you uproot once, it’s easier to another time. I never feel 100% at home anywhere, though I am mostly at home on the west coast with a few quirks. I work at a boarding school now, and I absolutely adore my two Seattle boys in class because we speak the same language. Moving is not so bad, ultimately, but it is hard during the process. Best of luck to you!

      • Katherine Says:

        The ask three times thing is a thing in Bulgaria, too. One of my good friends is a Bulgarian expat and she tells a story about the time she and her family were visiting friends in Germany for Christmas, and when food was offered for dinner they were polite and said, “No, thank you,” and then it wasn’t offered again and they didn’t get to eat!

        My family is from Scandinavia, and I think some aspects of Midwestern culture are probably pretty similar to my culture, but the ask three times thing is not one of them!

  7. Jenny F. Scientist Says:

    What I usually tell people about moving is that for me the first six months were always kind of terrible- just the work of rearranging you entire life is wearing! – so if it gets less-hard before that you’re doing great!

    I moved back to Home State three years ago – to an area I’d spent a ton of time in!- and it was still a huge shock. Now, naturally, aside from being underemployed I’m quite happy here. So even though Katherine has only been there for a day, I think basically people adapt regardless! More easily in a generally positive situation, of course.

    • Leah Says:

      We live at a boarding school and some of us have to switch apartments relatively often. In 8 years, my husband has lived in 4 apartments. We definitely find that even these small moves take at least 6 months to get used to as you sort out where your items belong. Grateful we’ve been in the same place for the past three years, tho we might move somewhere this summer. I’m both excited (more space!) and nervous to rearrange yet again.

  8. Cloud Says:

    My now-husband move from New Zealand to America to be with me. Now, Kiwis are generally cool with travel and famously tend to do an “OE” (overseas experience) where they live and work abroad for a couple of years (usually in the UK, for work visa reasons), but it was clear when he came to join me that this was a fairly permanent move, not an OE. One thing that makes this easier on both of us is that I don’t question decisions to spend money to get access to things from home that he’s missing out on by being here. Which means we spend a lot of money to get access to rugby on TV, for instance. I also learned how to make one of the food items he misses most (meat pies: here’s my recipe:

    And, we go to NZ as often as he wants that to be what we do with our vacation time. The frequency of the trips has decreased dramatically since having kids (mostly due to cost), but we’re going this year, even though in some regards, it would be smarter to save the money.

    I’m not sure how much of this generalizes to an “inside the US” move. Maybe just the part about recognizing that the person moving away from home is giving up something real, and trying to do some reasonable things to alleviate that.

    But recognizing that he’s giving something real up doesn’t mean you made him give that up. You aren’t *forcing* him to move. He could decide he’d like to stay put more than he’d like to be with you (as my ex did when I moved across country after grad school).

    My husband is happy here now. I’m the one talking about moving to New Zealand when we retire, not him!

  9. Mr Katherine Says:

    As the husband of Katherine (or else there’s another Katherine in exactly the same situation who also asked, and the internet is big, but maybe not THAT big) I have to start by saying how amusing this is to me. I’m, frankly, flabbergasted that me being a poorly-traveled provincial hick has created an internet argument. To the couple people who pointed out that this is an opportunity to gain culture, that’s probably very helpful advice. (But I still say that culture is only good if you’re making yogurt.)

    For me, I’ve been reminding myself that I’m not so much leaving this state as I’m following her. And from her description, there are much worse places that I’d follow her with a smile. As long as I’m with her, I’ll be happy just being that obnoxious guy who hangs all his state icons all around the house and throws a pointless party on the state holidays. Telling her that seems to make her feel better, also. Or at least, it often gets me a kiss, and I’m happy to take that.

    As for the idea of SHOULD someone in her situation feel guilty, that’s clearly up to each person. My personal feeling is that this is one of those situations where guilt is useless. (As N&M pointed out, if you shoot a man just to watch him die, that’s guilt with a point.) She hasn’t done anything wrong, and I doubt that anyone else in a similar situation has. I think Cloud might have the right idea on it – it’s useful to recognize that there is a sacrifice being made, and then to act however that prompts. That makes it easier for me (or any other hypothetical trailing spouse) instead of just making it harder for her. (And I’m not just saying that because it’s self-serving!)

    • nicoleandmaggie Says:

      If you like dairy products, the Midwest is an INCREDIBLE place to be.

      • nicoleandmaggie Says:

        p.s. Everyone will love you if one of your state parties is a chili fest. Also, don’t think of midwestern (aka st. louis) bbq as the same as bbq in your state. Just pretend it is something completely different. Not actually bbq, more like a delicious candied meat. That way you can actually appreciate it.

  10. Rheophile Says:

    This one’s hitting a little close to home – I feel that same guilt. I got a (very nice!) TT job offer, in a location we’d both be ok with. But moving means my wife leaves a job she loves, and either has to switch to a different field, or we both end up with 40-minute-plus commutes. I’m not quite sure what we’re going to decide yet.

  11. SP Says:

    As someone who moved from a job/place I loved for a spouse and ended up hating my job (after never hating a job before and optimistically thinking I could like any job because I was optimistic).. and as someone who cried a lot that first year… Even while trying so hard to make it an adventure..

    Despite that, it was always something I chose to do (we chose together). Even when I hated things, I knew it was a choice that we had made, and it was up to us to make the best of it. I would have hated for my husband to feel guilty (though gratitude/acknowledgement was nice). Eventually, I chose to take a different job, we made a few more choices that improved things, and I’m now really happy here.Things are better than I would have ever guessed. If it was not working, we could have chose to go somewhere else and try again.

    I still don’t know if it was the best choice, because there is really no such thing – there is only choice you made, and all the other options you didn’t take. Sounds like you’ve made your choice and are excited about it! Good luck, and I’m sure you’ll have lots of adventures in this next phase of life!

  12. Funny about Money Says:

    We stayed in Arizona after I finished the Ph.D., but for a non-emotional reason: My husband earned more as a lawyer than I could EVER hope to earn as an academic. So, unless I wanted to spend the rest of my life teaching freshman comp in the junior colleges, I had to give up my academic aspirations.

    It meant I never published the Great Monograph of the Western World (though my rewritten dissertation did come out through Folger Shakespeare Library, and I published a textbook). But I ended up in journalism, a low-paying trade but one that was one heck of a lot more fun than 99.9% of my academic friends have had in their university and community-college careers. When I returned to academia to support myself after a divorce, I found it to be a pretty miserable place, fraught with politics, ego, stupefyingly low pay, and institutionalized craziness.

    If you have serious questions about the wisdom of moving to chase academic jobs, it might be worth looking at jobs outside the academy. Some business people are surprisingly impressed with the Ph,D. — I found it got me higher entry pay than any of my coworkers had wrangled. Most Ph.D.’s are self-starters and so tend to move upwards in the business world. And many executive and management jobs allow you to use your intellect in surprising ways.

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